Monday, November 08, 2004
Comment Gone Lengthy. CGL III
Two posts in a day? Not really. Posted my entry and went on to Laura's blog, and got started on this reply in this discussion and before I knew it the comment length got out of hands - again. So now I have coined an acronym for comment gone lengthy, CGL. This is CGL 3, which Saima you may want to overlook, and go straight to the post of the day :).
"James,
You evaded my query about the people of Sodom and Gomorra. The question is not whether or not the Christian states ban or do not ban homosexuality. The question is whether or not Christianity does. The support of an activity, or lack of objection to it, by a Christian state does not necessarily construe support for it in Christianity. The Western world has gone to great lengths to ensure the separation of state and religion, at least until Bush’s recent victory. On the contrary, in an Islamic country the ideal is to work towards a state which implements the egalitarian ideals of the religion, thus making religion intertwined with the politics and the business of the state. Yet, unscrupulous elements amongst us have led to the same situation where everything that an Islamic state does is not necessarily ordained by Islam. In this, the Christian and the Islamic states seem to face the same paradox.
I used the term *almost identical* because we both know they are not identical, or else we wouldn’t be having this discussion in the first place. We can now choose to stress the similarities, or overlaps as you call them, and work towards peaceful co-existence, or highlight the differences and continue to be the warring worlds we are today. You point out very rightly that Islam does not accord divinity to Jesus, didn’t I say that much already. To us, he is a Prophet/Apostle much like Mohammad (SAW).
As for the Jews, you are right – they were driven out of Madina. You are wrong, however, they were never driven out of Arabia. There were three Jewish tribes in Madina at the time the Prophet established the Islamic Government in Madina, and all three were treated as equal citizens of Madina. However, they continued to conspire with the Makkans, the persecutors and enemies of Muslims, and sided with them each time the Makkans attacked Madina. It amounted to treason, and their further stay in Madina was detrimental to the very survival of the nascent Muslim nation. However, Jews continued to prosper as Dhimmis, the tax paying protected, under Muslim rule for centuries to come. So much so that when the Crusaders took Jerusalem, the Jews found respite from persecution only when Salahuddin conquered it back. When Muslims lost Spain to Ferdenend and Isabella, the Muslims were not the only ones to suffer. The Spanish inquisition persecuted Jews like crazy, and the only place they could find large scale refuge in was Islamic Turkey – then Ottomon Empire. Actually, the earliest footages of Jews arriving in Palestine show Palestinians welcoming them at the harbor with garlands.
Anti-Semitism, my friend, was an alien concept in Islam – it was imported from the third monotheistic faith in late 20th century after the Jews had wrested Palestine away, with explicit support from US, UK and hence the UN. Unfortunately, five decades of violence and hatred following the creation of Israel in Palestinian land has led to a wide schism between Muslims and Jews.
You have often questioned the peace message of Islam, emphasizing some of the bleakest historical facts that blot our historical landscape. The same landscape is bloodied by the blood of millions of Jews gassed by Christian Hitler – am I to deduce that Bible does not propagate peace?
I am no scholar on Quran; I have read it over though, and I know this much that Quran advocates peace and harmony, and tells us that violence can only be a last option when our well-being and survival is threatened by a belligerent enemy. I am not aware of Islam teaching the turn-the-other-cheek doctrine, but it also does prohibit hitting the cheek in the first place.
You seem to be better read than I am, but when reading the Quran you seem to make the same mistake which the extremists and militants make. They take Ayahs out of context, and quote them to validate their own ulterior objectives. I am not sure if they do so out of ignorance about Islam or willfully, and I am not sure about that part about you either.
Perhaps, you could pinpoint an ayah for me, and I could look up the context for you.
For now, I continue to read as well."
¶ 11/08/2004 02:24:00 PM
"James,
You evaded my query about the people of Sodom and Gomorra. The question is not whether or not the Christian states ban or do not ban homosexuality. The question is whether or not Christianity does. The support of an activity, or lack of objection to it, by a Christian state does not necessarily construe support for it in Christianity. The Western world has gone to great lengths to ensure the separation of state and religion, at least until Bush’s recent victory. On the contrary, in an Islamic country the ideal is to work towards a state which implements the egalitarian ideals of the religion, thus making religion intertwined with the politics and the business of the state. Yet, unscrupulous elements amongst us have led to the same situation where everything that an Islamic state does is not necessarily ordained by Islam. In this, the Christian and the Islamic states seem to face the same paradox.
I used the term *almost identical* because we both know they are not identical, or else we wouldn’t be having this discussion in the first place. We can now choose to stress the similarities, or overlaps as you call them, and work towards peaceful co-existence, or highlight the differences and continue to be the warring worlds we are today. You point out very rightly that Islam does not accord divinity to Jesus, didn’t I say that much already. To us, he is a Prophet/Apostle much like Mohammad (SAW).
As for the Jews, you are right – they were driven out of Madina. You are wrong, however, they were never driven out of Arabia. There were three Jewish tribes in Madina at the time the Prophet established the Islamic Government in Madina, and all three were treated as equal citizens of Madina. However, they continued to conspire with the Makkans, the persecutors and enemies of Muslims, and sided with them each time the Makkans attacked Madina. It amounted to treason, and their further stay in Madina was detrimental to the very survival of the nascent Muslim nation. However, Jews continued to prosper as Dhimmis, the tax paying protected, under Muslim rule for centuries to come. So much so that when the Crusaders took Jerusalem, the Jews found respite from persecution only when Salahuddin conquered it back. When Muslims lost Spain to Ferdenend and Isabella, the Muslims were not the only ones to suffer. The Spanish inquisition persecuted Jews like crazy, and the only place they could find large scale refuge in was Islamic Turkey – then Ottomon Empire. Actually, the earliest footages of Jews arriving in Palestine show Palestinians welcoming them at the harbor with garlands.
Anti-Semitism, my friend, was an alien concept in Islam – it was imported from the third monotheistic faith in late 20th century after the Jews had wrested Palestine away, with explicit support from US, UK and hence the UN. Unfortunately, five decades of violence and hatred following the creation of Israel in Palestinian land has led to a wide schism between Muslims and Jews.
You have often questioned the peace message of Islam, emphasizing some of the bleakest historical facts that blot our historical landscape. The same landscape is bloodied by the blood of millions of Jews gassed by Christian Hitler – am I to deduce that Bible does not propagate peace?
I am no scholar on Quran; I have read it over though, and I know this much that Quran advocates peace and harmony, and tells us that violence can only be a last option when our well-being and survival is threatened by a belligerent enemy. I am not aware of Islam teaching the turn-the-other-cheek doctrine, but it also does prohibit hitting the cheek in the first place.
You seem to be better read than I am, but when reading the Quran you seem to make the same mistake which the extremists and militants make. They take Ayahs out of context, and quote them to validate their own ulterior objectives. I am not sure if they do so out of ignorance about Islam or willfully, and I am not sure about that part about you either.
Perhaps, you could pinpoint an ayah for me, and I could look up the context for you.
For now, I continue to read as well."
¶ 11/08/2004 02:24:00 PM
